RANDY HENDERSON, HOST "THE TRAIL BREAKER", CBC RADIO: Here we go with our special phone-in. And to help us navigate our way through this special hour we're joined by Doug Matthews. Matthews is an energy consultant, and for 20 years he was head of the territorial government's minerals, oil and gas division. He's joining us this morning from our CBC studio in Calgary. Good morning, Doug.

DOUG MATTHEWS, ENERGY CONSULTANT: Good morning, Randy.

CBC: And joining us here in our Yellowknife studio is Julie Green, and she's our CBC resources reporter. Good morning to you, Julie.

JULIE GREEN, REPORTER, CBC RADIO: Good morning, Randy.

CBC: So, Julie, let's start with you. What's the mood across the territory in anticipation of Imperial's announcement this month?

GREEN: Well, I guess, I'm seeing a lot of jitteriness. I see people being very anxious, whether they are in favour of this pipeline or not. They've been sitting on the edge of their seats now for more than six months, since Imperial Oil put the project on hold, and they're seizing every piece of news like a lifeline, whether it's news that Ottawa might buy an equity stake, or its news about negotiations between the aboriginal organizations and the producers. But it just is up and down, you know, with people very anxious. And I understand that because of the slowdown of drilling in the Delta, there's also an increased amount of anxiety there because while they have been busy and winter has gone by with exploration, this year, with this just the one well in that off-shore, there isn't a lot of work up there. So I think that they are particularly concerned.

CBC: Now, Doug Matthews, I'll ask the question we're asking our listeners this morning, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

MATTHEWS: Well I certainly think so, Randy. I mean, I've been involved in this file for a number of years, and I'm pretty supportive of the project, but not for the reasons you might think. The construction impact on the economy, while it will be substantial, will be short lived. There's not a lot of jobs once the line has been built. The operations are mostly computerized. The pipeline will likely open up other parts of the North to exploration and development, but, then again, neither Norman Wells nor Sheea (?) Pipelines have yet found the second customer. No, I want a pipeline because the North needs the money it will bring, through taxes and royalties, to enable it to look after its own people. Northerners, particularly aboriginal northerners, are generally either aging and in need of more and more services, or young and in need of more and more opportunities. Both will look to government, and government will need money to respond.

CBC: Alright, Doug. Thank you. And time now to hear what our listeners have to say. First, we have Fred Carmichael on the line. He's chair of the Aboriginal Pipeline Group, and Mr. Carmichael is calling from Calgary this morning. Good morning, sir.

FRED CARMICHAEL, CHAIR, ABORIGINAL PIPELINE GROUP: Good morning, Randy. Good morning, Julie and Doug. Good morning…(inaudible)…Good morning to everyone out there listening.

CBC: Alright. Now we're simply going to ask you the question, do we need a pipeline down the valley?

CARMICHAEL: Absolutely. That's the future for our future generations. Our people today need the jobs. Doug mentioned the short-term jobs. There is long-term jobs with this project, because as long as the pipe is there, they need to keep it full and they need ongoing exploration. This project, as Doug said, brings money into the government, through royalties and taxes, to take care of education, health, housing. And in addition to that, the aboriginal people have an ownership, one-third ownership in this pipeline. And that brings them $20 million a year to the aboriginal people. I see it as another step towards self-sufficiency. Our people have to get out from dependence on government, for example. And if we were successful, and it looks very promising that we are able to receive a government loan guarantee, the $20 million jumps to $44 million a year. And just for the Gwich'in alone, that's $8.8 million coming into the Gwich'in community, and we're one of the smaller stakeholders in this project. So it just goes to show that there's a real need for this project. What happens to me is that as leaders I say we have a responsibility to prepare and leave something for our future generations.

CBC: Alright. With that, Fred Carmichael, we'd like to thank you so much for your point of view this morning. We're going to try to get as many callers in as we can, but thanks for calling us.

CARMICHAEL: You're more than welcome.

CBC: And we have Victoria on the line from Hay River this morning. Good morning, Victoria.

VICTORIA: Good morning, Randy. How are you?

CBC: I am well, thanks. Victoria, do we need a pipeline down the valley?

VICTORIA: I sure do think we do. It will boost the economy and jobs and stuff like that, and I feel like the North is in a slump right now.

CBC: And you think this is going to be the salvo to get us out of the slump.

VICTORIA: I sure do, yeah. I think it will, like I said, it will give us a lot of jobs in the North, and boost the economy, and a lot of money into the northern communities.

CBC: Alright. Are you worried on the flip side, Victoria, at all, about the social impact of a pipeline?

VICTORIA: Well, of course. Like every community, with money and jobs and a boost to the economy, like, we will have the social problems. But I think if we deal with it now, yeah, of course, there is going to be a big impact on that.

CBC: Okay. Victoria, thanks for calling.

VICTORIA: Okay, thanks, Randy.

CBC: 669-3600 is the number to call in Yellowknife. You can call that collect, if you like -- 669-3600 -- or use our toll-free line, which is 1-800-661-0708. We're asking you if we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley. And Peter Clarkson joins us on the line from Inuvik. Good morning, Peter.

CLARKSON: Good morning, Randy. Good morning, Doug.

MATTHEWS: Good morning, Peter.

CBC: And, Mayor Clarkson, why don't you tell us why you think we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley.

MATTHEWS: Randy, I think we need a pipeline down the valley for several reasons, and I won't repeat all the good reasons Fred Carmichael already identified. But I think one of the main reasons is just that diversification of the economy. I mean, if we look at the Mackenzie Valley right now, and the Beaufort-Delta, our main economy is government. We've got the various different government levels. And an economy just isn't sustainable for the long term on just government. So I think by bringing in something like an oil and gas economy, it provides more jobs, there's more things for people to do, and I think it provides employment in an area where government can't. I think with that, it's not going to solve all of our problems. It's only a piece of the puzzle. But I think if we can diversify away from government and encourage other forms of the economy, I think we'll be more sustainable and healthier in the long run.

GREEN: Peter, Julie here. Don't you think, though, that it will always be an up and down economy, where it's tied to natural resources, especially to oil and gas? I mean, you've lived through several of these boom and busts yourself.

CLARKSON: I think it will be tied to natural resources, because we're not going to create a manufacturing economy in the North, given our distance to market, so we're going to have to rely on natural resources. We relied on natural resources in the past. I mean, the fur trade was natural resources. But at this point, if we look up and down the valley, the only thing that's being exported up and down the valley is oil out of Norman Wells, some gas out of the southern part of the territory. I mean, we don't have agriculture; we don't have forestry; we're not an information technology economy; so we need something for the diversity. I would preface all of that by we definitely need to address the environmental and the social concerns that people may have. But the $500 million promised by the federal government will go farther than anything we've ever seen in addressing social concerns that, you know, stem from early exploration days, stem from the residential schools, stem from, you know, whatever problems people have in the valley. We're not going to have an opportunity like that to get that large amount of money and focus on community wellness that's being attached to this pipeline.

CBC: Alright, Peter Clarkson. Thanks for your point of view this morning.

CLARKSON: Alright, thanks, Randy.

CBC: And 669-3600 is the number to call to share your thoughts on whether we need a pipeline. 669-3600. Or 1-800-661-0708. Lorraine Moses joins us on the line from Fort Simpson. Good morning, Lorraine.

MOSES: Good morning.

CBC: And do we need a pipeline down the valley?

MOSES: Well we do need some sort of resource development, but we don't have our people are not really prepared to work on the major projects like the pipeline.

CBC: And do you feel the pressure, living in Fort Simpson, from the rest of the territory, or just from people you talk with? Just how much pressure are you facing to agree to this pipeline?

MOSES: I think that our leadership is under a lot of pressure to agree to put the pipeline through. Although a lot of our young people are not prepared. You know, having the skills and the knowledge to work on pipeline related work. I think that we need to start training our young people, so that we can have a qualified labour force that would be able to work on the pipeline, especially for the women, too.
CBC: So when do you think you would be ready?

MOSES: I would say in about…I'm not too sure. However long it takes to be able to bring the young people from where they're at today to be able to participate in the labour market.

CBC: Alright, Lorraine. Thanks a lot for your call this morning.

MOSES: Thank you very much.

CBC: And Jessie is on the line from Fort Smith. Good morning, Jessie.

JESSIE: Good morning.

CBC: Do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

JESSIE: Well I think I'm the youth of the North, and I say no, because I think we have a chance to make a stand to say environment, not economy, not money, and we want to preserve the North. It's a non-renewable resource, and I think it needs to be left alone. The jobs are limited, like you guys said. They don't last long. Maybe they're there for a while, but then they're gone. And we have a chance to make a stand for change, like change for renewable energy, clean energy, and that's what we should be doing I think, focussing on that. And it kind of scares me that Esso is a big partner in this, when they don't explore clean energy sources and things like that. And I don't think that the youth have much of a voice in the pipeline. I kind of feel that democracy needs to play a role, and everybody needs to be able to vote on this issues.

CBC: Alright, Jessie. Julie, did you want to add anything to that?

GREEN: Just that one of the things that the government has done, up to this point, is put a substantial amount of money into trades training. I was in the valley last winter, doing a series of stories, and I met a group of apprentices, Norman Wells people who were mostly in their early twenties, who were taking tickets and things, like being a millwright and being a welder and being a carpenter. So there is some preparation going on. I guess it's not clear to me where those people will work with their new trades training, if they are not going to work on this project or on the oil and gas exploration that has been fuelling the economy of Norman Wells over the last several winters. I find that most of these people don't want to move to Alberta and work in Fort McMurray. So there's a question of what will the people who are trained and ready, what will they do? What will their job be while we look for better sources of energy, cleaner, and renewable sources of energy, which is definitely where we need to go? But it's the short term that's the problem.

CBC: Alright. We have Alex Debagorski (?) on the line from Yellowknife. Good morning, Alex.

DEBAGORSKI: Good morning, sir.

CBC: And do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

DEBAGORSKI: I think not yet. My concern is, I feel, from some of the reading I've done, that the world, in general, is running out of oil and gas. And probably in 10 years from now may be more the time that…because I think the price of oil is going to continue going up, and the time to sell is when it's worth more. My brother bought a number of barrels of fuel for the millennium, for 2000, and he's been saying oh, use them up. And they've been sitting there for five years, and those barrels of diesel fuel have gone up more in value than any other investment we have. And I suggest the price of oil and gas is going to continue going up. I understand there may be some potential shortages for fuel going north on the winter road to the diamond mines this year, and I think that all points to a shortage of fuel in the world. I think the reason they aren't building a refining capacity in different places in the world is because they don't think there's enough fuel and oil to refine over the next 30 years to make the refinery pay back for itself.

CBC: Alright, Alex. Thanks for your thoughts this morning.

DEBAGORSKI: You know, my idea is, you know, I…

CBC: Sorry, Alex. We're going to have to break for the news here, but you're saying to wait now and reap the benefits later. Thanks for sharing your point of view. We have the regional news and weather coming up next. Continue to call us for our phone-in.

---Short Break

CBC: I’m Randy Henderson along with Julie Green, our resources reporter in the studio, and Doug Matthews, our energy consultant in our Calgary studio. What we’re asking here on our phone-in this morning is do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley? Why don’t you share your point of view this morning; 669-3600 is the number to call or 1-800-661-0708. Tom is on the line from Fort Good Hope. Good morning to you, Tom.

TOM: Good morning.

CBC: And, Tom, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

TOM: Well, I mean, there are a lot of people in favour of it, but there’s a few that are in opposition. The community here is working as though the pipeline were still going to go ahead, and, you know, your comments that we’re not ready, the Berger inquiry, which happened 30 years ago, at the time we said we’re not ready and this is 30 years later and saying we’re still not ready. You know, the community is preparing for the pipeline right now. We’re negotiating access and benefits with the proponents with the Mackenzie gas project, and there was an offer made on their position with our community, and we made a counter offer and if they were smart they would accept that. It’s just preparing. Like Carmichael says we have to prepare for the future and make sure that things are set down for the future generations. We just heard on CBC News that a program was going to be cut for the youth centre. The alcohol centres in the Territories have been cut down to one, that’s in Hay River. We need programs and the Government of the NWT is saying well we’re broke and they’re cutting here and there and gas prices are increasing and everybody is crying about that. The cost of living is just going up and the governments are not increasing what they’re giving out to the people that they’re supposed to be representing.

CBC: Alright, Tom, Julie Green, our resources reporter, would like to ask a question of you.

GREEN: You make a good point there, Tom, about how there is a lack of services and help for young people and for people who have addictions, people who have special education needs and other things like that. If the pipeline doesn’t happen how do you see the future in terms of getting those services that are so badly needed now?

---Laughter

TOM: Julie, right now we don’t have a pipeline and we’re surviving. I mean we have our caribou and fish and the lakes, and we’re getting by, barely, but what I’m saying is if the proponents, including the federal government, will agree to our position in the community man we’ll be ahead. We’ll be ahead and we can subsidize those programs that are being cut, and make sure that the future looks healthy for everybody.

CBC: Alright, Tom, thanks for your call this morning.

TOM: Alright.

CBC: And, Doug Matthews, in Calgary, we just heard from Tom Kakfwi of Fort Good Hope, and of course we know they’re in Good Hope negotiating an access agreement of their own for the pipeline to go through their territory. What do you think of what they’ve come up with so far?

MATTHEWS: Well I’m not privy to the details of their proposal, but the idea that people should have some control over resource development in the North and should benefit from it is obviously clearly a very appropriate one. I mean, I was thinking during the news Jessie from Fort Smith really put her finger on it when she talked about wanting to have a voice in the decisions, and that really is the other side of the issue on the pipeline. The pipeline project, after all, is just an industrial project. You know, it will bring some benefits and jobs and so forth and so on, but the real prize here is the royalties and the revenues that will flow from it, and the devolution that should allow northern governments to get the control of those resources and of the revenues that flow from them. That helps with Peter Clarkson’s issue of, you know, the boom bust. I mean if northern resource managers are looking after those resources there are ways that you can put them out, you know, certain terms and conditions, you can control the rights issuance, you can change the royalty regime and so forth. You’re having decisions made in the North by northerners, and the money then stays in the North for northerners to use. In the words of John A. McDonald “after our own fashion, and in our own way.”

CBC: Well, Doug, is there still the race to build the pipeline here down the valley before Alaska builds theirs?

MATTHEWS: Well there is in my mind. I mean many people would say that there isn’t, but I’ve always felt, quite frankly, that if the Delta line doesn’t precede the Alaska Highway’s line then we’re pretty well toast.

CBC: Alright, and what are the consequences of the Alaska pipeline going ahead first? I mean how long would we have to wait do you think?

MATTHEWS: Well I suppose it depends on your perspective. I mean the case that I’m making is that government has an opportunity here to pursue aggressively devolution on the back of the pipeline, and, you know, turn northerners into managers of their own destiny then I would say that’s a very bad price to pay. On the other hand if you believe as Alec does, which I don’t, that, you know, the longer you leave this stuff in the ground the more it’s going to be worth in the future, well that some people would say it’s a good thing if we wait another 20 years.

CBC: Alright, Doug. And Shirley Casoon is on the line from Inuvik. Good morning, Shirley.

CASOON: Good morning, Randy.

CBC: Shirley, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

CASOON: I’m going to be the devil’s advocate here and I think I’m going to say no because I just don’t believe that it’s needed at this time. We’ve survived the past 20 years. We’ve survived without the pipeline, and I think we will continue to survive.

CBC: Okay, thank you, Shirley. 660-3600 is the number to call. Do we need a pipeline down the valley? 669-3600 or 1-800-661-0708. And James is on the line from Tsiigehtchic. Good morning, James.

JAMES: Good morning.

CBC: Do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

JAMES: Well my thoughts are yes. There is a lot of potential for native companies in the Northwest Territories. Right now we’re sitting still waiting for the big word whether it’s going to go or not, and a lot of companies today are folding because the oil company, Imperial Oil, said no, we can’t go ahead, we can’t proceed. Now what’s going to happen with the rest of the Northwest Territories? Well even though you have your wildlife out there that too is in danger. You see neither way you’re going to have to think about the future of your family because they’re going to grow up educated and they want to get into the field where they can get jobs. Now there’s not many jobs across the North, except for the diamond mines. For people to sit back and say they can’t have that or they can have that there is help there available. Now the federal government has put in $500 million. The territorial government has put $40 million into communities. They’re giving you the answer there to go ahead with the pipeline. We had another comment from Imperial Oil that they’re going to make the federal government that they’re going to consider 20 percent of the Mackenzie gas. Okay, now let’s start thinking about who is holding back here? What I see is the negotiations with the aboriginals and the oil companies right now, that’s all we’re waiting for.

GREEN: James, this is Julie Green. My question for you is what do you think that we should be earning from the pipeline when you think about the revenue that it’s going to generate? What should the people of the Northwest Territories earn and what should the aboriginal organizations earn?

JAMES: Well, they are going to earn a lot of experience form the work that’s going to happen out there. They are going to increase the knowledge and the employment in the community. That’s great potential that’s going to be happening.

HENDERSON: Thanks for your call, James. It’s 12 minutes before 8:00. The number is 669-3600. You can call that number collect. We are asking you if we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley. Ruth in Inuvik, what do you think?

RUTH: I don’t think we need one.

HENDERSON: Why?

RUTH: I think that for a couple of years of people barking about the money they are going to make, the big bucks they are going to have, I don’t think it’s worth it. I think that people should start putting their know-how to something that’s going to be an ongoing thing like ecotourism and stuff. We’ve got one of the best, wonderful lands in the world. Why don’t we use that? We could have camps where all these people could come and see what a gorgeous place this is. Just look at the other countries that got “civilized” and used up all their resources. They have nothing out there now. They have farm. Okay, so I am not that bad on farmland, but I mean really. They have no animals out there, wild animals. We have gorgeous stuff up here, gorgeous land. You can go hunting and fishing. Even though I don’t do that, everybody else could start learning.

HENDERSON: You don’t think we could do both at the same time, have development and ecotourism?

RUTH: Take a peak around the world. Where else do they do that? Right now, they are having a drought I the Amazon for crying out loud. That’s our wetland of the world. That’s our breathing lungs and they are having a drought there for crying out loud. They have cut down so much of the forest there and burnt it for a few bucks.

HENDERSON: Okay, Ruth. Thanks very much for your call this morning.

RUTH: Wait, wait. Somebody said the jobs they were going to get, all that experience they are going to have. What are they going to do when the pipeline finally peters off in a couple of years? All of these kids of ours who we want to give experience, they are going to have to move somewhere else around the world to use that experience. They really should try to do something right here. They are using our resources, not taking it out but reusing it so it’s an ongoing thing.

HENDERSON: Okay, Ruth. Thanks a lot. Anna is on the line from Fort Smith. Good morning, Anna.

ANNA: Good morning.

HENDERSON: Anna, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

ANNA: No, we don’t. As youth in the Northwest Territories and someone who feels connected to the youth, we don’t need a pipeline. We don’t need anymore of our moms going to camp jobs for two weeks and giving us care by giving us money. We don’t need trade jobs. We do need trade jobs, but we also need to be educated to make decisions about our territory. We need to be educated in the fields like decision-makers and government officials, as community workers. We don’t need a pipeline because we have dreams about our land, our fish and our needs. As youth, we don’t really want oil because we’ve seen what it’s done all around the earth. We have heard ever since we were little kids to cut back on this product. We have seen nothing done. So why do we want to contribute to this? As youth, I don’t think we do.

HENDERSON: Okay, Anna. Thanks very much for your call. Edna is on the line from Fort McPherson. Good morning to you, Edna.

EDNA: Good morning.

HENDERSON: Edna, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

EDNA: No.

HENDERSON: Why is that, Edna?

EDNA: Because people are not ready up in the Delta and down further. They are not ready for the pipeline. Nobody is educated on it. It’s going to affect the youth. Every time somebody talks about the pipeline, it’s making it more confusing for the people and nothing has happened to date and I hope it don’t ever happen in the future.

HENDERSON: What’s it going to take, Edna, for people to get ready, do you think?

EDNA: It’s going to take a lot of education and training for other people. Like the other people were saying, when the people get their training, what are they going to do after their training? There is nothing else for them after their training. There is nothing else for them after their training. The pipeline is only going to be a few years and that’s going to destroy our land up here. Everybody depends on our land up here. We are living good off our land. If the pipeline comes through, we aren’t going to have nothing. I don’t want to see the pipeline go through our land.

HENDERSON: Alright, Edna. Thanks for your call.

EDNA: Just a minute. Somebody wants to talk.

HENDERSON: 669-3600 is the number to call or 1-800-661-0608 and we have about eight more minutes to take your call this morning.

EDNA: Okay, thank you.

HENDERSON: Thank you. Robbie is on the line from Yellowknife. Good morning, Robbie. Are you there?

ROBBIE: Yes, good morning.

HENDERSON: Robbie, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

ROBBIE: I would say we do. The reason is in order to build a pipeline, it would make it a lot more easier for everyone involved building a road with it. If you look at the cost of living up in the Mackenzie Delta/Sahtu region, the negotiators are asking for everything they can, which is rightfully what they should be doing. What no one has ever mentioned is including a road with the pipeline. Generally, that would reduce the cost of living by as much as 20 to 30 percent, lower the cost of gasoline fuel and in the long run, that would help every region substantially, including the Deh Cho region which would…

HENDERSON: Alright. Julie, did you want to comment on that?

GREEN: Certainly. I have been at community meetings in the Valley where people have talked to Imperial Oil about wanting a road for all the reasons you’ve just said. Imperial Oil have said they don’t need it to build their project. They are going to barge their materials up and access the land from the river. I am just wondering who you see building that and paying for it?

ROBBIE: It could be part of the agreement with the pipeline negotiation. If you get a one-time…(inaudible)…that Imperial wants to give, we are only getting that once. If you build a highway, it’s with us forever.

HENDERSON: Alright, Robbie. Thanks a lot for your call. We only have five minutes to take your call, so we are going to try to get through as many as we can now. I will ask that you keep your comments brief. David is on the line from Yellowknife. Good morning, David.

DAVID: Good morning, Randy. How are you doing?

HENDERSON: I’m well. Dave, do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley?

DAVID: If all of the northerners were to receive affordable fuel prices, I would say yes, but you know that’s not going to happen. It’s going to bypass all the communities. It will end up down in the states and who knows where and we will still pay through the nose. I am also very concerned about the impact that the money will have. Just walk down the streets of Yellowknife, look in the newspaper, listen to the radio or North Beat. Look at the cocaine problems and everything else there is in the communities. That has a real serious impact and is very disturbing.

HENDERSON: Alright, Dave. Thanks for your call. Jackie is on the line from Fort Good Hope. Jackie, do we need a pipeline down the Valley? Good morning, Jackie, are you there?

Alright, we will go to Cassie from Holman. Good morning, Cassie.

CASSIE: Good morning.

HENDERSON: Cassie, you are calling from the farthest flung community this morning. What are your thoughts? Do we need a pipeline down the valley?

CASSIE: Yes, I do believe that we do. As a northerner, I am concerned about the hole in the ozone layer. We need some natural fuel to use. To some of the callers, I was listening and I wanted to reply that they say that they need some time for the youth or for people to educate themselves or something like that. What about for the ones who are educated that are waiting for jobs, especially with communities that are so isolated like Holman, that we mostly depend on government employment? What about the ones who are waiting for job openings and stuff like that?

HENDERSON: Okay, Cassie. Thanks so much for your call this morning.

CASSIE: We will go to Fort Simpson now. Dennis, very briefly, do we need a pipeline down the Valley?

DENNIS: Yes, Randy. We do need a pipeline. I think the key question here is how do you get community support? Just one word: planning. You have to plan this out, plan out what the next 20 years is going to be and how we can gel with the Mackenzie gas pipeline project.

HENDERSON: Alright, thanks a lot, Dennis. Allison from Yellowknife, do we need a pipeline down the valley?

ALLISON: I think we always need opportunities for jobs and resource development. In terms of being ready, probably the North is ready but I don’t think the oil companies are ready. If they aren’t willing to compensate on what the North is asking for, then they aren’t ready.

HENDERSON: Thanks a lot for your call, Allison. Before we wrap this up, I want to ask our two panellists, first to you, Julie, what is your gut feel on this? Will Imperial Oil announce this month that they are ready to go ahead with public hearings on the issue?

GREEN: Imperial Oil still has a lot of uncertainty in its project and I have to tell you honestly I think it’s of their own making. They have not reached any agreements that I know of with aboriginal organizations. They have only recently started serious negotiations with them. They don’t even start talking with the Dehcho until next week. Clearly the trial balloon that went up from Ottawa last week about the 20 percent equity stake shows that they are not close to an agreement with Ottawa either. So I am just saying that there is lots of uncertainty. I would be surprised that they decided that they were ready to go ahead.

HENDERSON: Alright. What about you, Doug Matthews? What are your thoughts on that?

MATTHEWS: I think the thing that troubles me most on this, Randy, and what I have been trying to get at this morning is the issue for me is not the pipeline in itself. The issue is what the pipeline can bring to the North in terms of northern control, northern benefits. I am concerned that if we do lose this opportunity -- and I agree with Julie, Esso has not covered itself in glory on this particular issue. If we lose this opportunity, I become the longer-term economic future of the North and northern people.

HENDERSON: Alright. Well, thanks very much, Doug and Julie, for contributing to our phone-in show this morning. Good to have your expertise. I would like to say thank you to all of our listeners who gave us a call. Unfortunately, we have run out of time. You can still voice your concern on the talk back line and hear your thoughts tomorrow morning. So give us at a call at 873-4928. That’s a different number we have been plugging all morning. You can still answer the question: Do we need a pipeline down the Mackenzie Valley? So thanks again to all of us who participated this morning: Doug Matthews, Julie Green, all of our listeners and callers today. I am Randy Henderson.

CBC Special Report